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Lately, God has been pressing me
to embrace uncertainty.

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There are a lot of ways I’m
trying to lean into what I

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believe He is saying and what I
believe He is doing.

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And so often I’m left with more
questions than answers, more

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unknowns than solutions.
And in the midst of some

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significant frustrations, God
reconnected me with Scott Mater.

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I met Scott years ago when I was
on his podcast, Inspired

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00:00:30,080 –> 00:00:33,200
Stewardship, and he’s actually
the one who connected me with

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00:00:33,200 –> 00:00:36,760
Morgan James Publishing.
We’ve reconnected here and

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there, but it was this
conversation where we leaned

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into the idea of uncertainty
that I really felt like God was

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saying a lot while still not
saying all of what I wanted him

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to say.
Scott feels.

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Strongly about the importance of
leaning into loving God and

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others with curiosity.
And in that space he has learned

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to embrace uncertainty.
We spent time talking about this

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00:01:01,880 –> 00:01:04,959
in the last episode and it seems
it’s something we need to press

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into even more.
What if uncertainty can be more

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than a lack of knowing?
What if there can be spirit LED

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uncertainty, a way of
positioning ourselves in

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relation to God that actually
allows us to love him and love

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others more fully?
If you’ve got a lot of

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uncertainty in your life right
now, this conversation with

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Scott might encourage you.
You’re listening to episode 240

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of the Where Did You See God
podcast.

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Father God, I just want to thank
you that you are God and you are

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good.
And for the opportunity for

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Scott and I to connect again and
for the unique way that you have

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kept us connected over the
years.

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And so we thank you for this
conversation and we acknowledge

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that we want it to be whatever
you want it to be.

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So we give it to you.
We say here we are Holy Spirit,

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We invite you to move through
it.

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Father God, I pray that you are
honored and glorified by what

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happens here.
And we thank you in advance for

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the immeasurably more that you
can do with this conversation.

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It’s very much holy and precious
name.

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Amen.
Well, Scott, we connected years

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ago when I was on your podcast
Inspired Stewardship.

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And then you are actually the
reason that I have a book being

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published by Morgan James
Publishing because you connected

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me with someone you knew there
and it was actually for a

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different book that still is
about midway through its

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process.
I was.

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Going to say, I heard the title
of the web the other day and I

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went, that’s not the title we
talked about, OK.

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And then you and I have been
hanging out because you are a

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Morgan James author as well.
And so we’ve been on these

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marketing calls each week.
It’s been great to connect, but

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I’m excited to connect in this
space because in all of that, we

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really haven’t had deep
conversation in a while.

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So before we get into whatever
God’s going to bring about, what

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would you want people to know
about who you are?

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00:03:07,040 –> 00:03:08,960
Oh boy, that’s a loaded
question, isn’t it?

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I think the biggest thing for me
now and how I got here is a

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whole different story.
We can we can talk about that

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some as well, is that I’ve
gotten to the point in my life

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and my walk where I work really
hard to be one of those people

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that holds to a very open hand
and open heart and open mind.

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I try really hard to go into
situations and lead with

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curiosity.
So if, if I run into somebody

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who believes different than me
or looks different than me or

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acts different than me, I, I,
I’m more curious about how did

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they get there than judging
where they’re at, if that makes

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sense.
And I can’t do that perfectly by

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any stretch of the imagination.
But I, I try really hard to do

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that.
And as long as they’re open to

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that, then I try to remain open
to that.

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And so because of that, I’ve got
a fairly diverse set of

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influences on my life that I
continue to invite in.

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Now, if they’re if, if you’re
real close minded, it’s like

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everyone should believe like me
or else, you know, tack with

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you.
And by the way, this is

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political, this is religious,
this it doesn’t matter, you

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know, in whatever arena, if
that’s kind of your thought

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process that I have a tendency
to be like, OK, we, it’s kind of

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hard for me to hang out with you
then because I’m more of a I,

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I’m really curious why people
believe what they believe and

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how they got there and what was
their journey.

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And, and I think it’s the
coaching experience.

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I started coaching
professionally back in 2011.

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And the more I do that, the more
I get where it’s like, oh,

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everybody’s got a story and
they’re all interesting.

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And it’s not a matter of or is
it right or wrong, it’s just how

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did you get here?
And I think for me, that’s

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probably my biggest value in
identity right now is trying to

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hold that space and.
What you said is something that

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a lot of people would probably
get behind as a concept, but to

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actually live out open hand,
open heart, open mind is often

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costly and functionally can make
you look foolish or reckless and

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so.
It’s also exhausting sometimes,

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and it’s.
Exhausting.

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It’s a lot of work, and so it’s
a way of living that people on

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the surface would like.
It’s very hard to live out and

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you are actively choosing to
continue to do it.

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00:05:34,040 –> 00:05:37,160
So what brought you to this
place of being actually?

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Open to living this way.
I think in part being closed is

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is what led to it and and my own
experience with that.

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A lot of it is my faith journey
in that I was raised in a

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Methodist family, my my father,
my mother.

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I went to a Methodist Church.
My father was kind of a pillar

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of the community out and about
in the world.

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And yet in private, he was an
alcoholic.

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You know, he was abusive to my
my mother and my sister, never

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00:06:06,040 –> 00:06:09,040
abusive physically to me,
emotionally abusive to me, but

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00:06:09,040 –> 00:06:12,040
not never physically abusive to
me, you know, which of course

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also leads to guilt and all
sorts of things of, you know,

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why, why was I never picked on
and yet they were and that kind

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of thing.
And a lot of this is stuff that

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when I was growing up, I didn’t
see it this way, but I’ve dealt

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with it and processed it and got
to the point where I could just

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say out loud that I love my dad.
I did not love the fact that he

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was an alcoholic and an abuser,
you know?

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And, and I’m going to choose to
take the parts of his identity

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and the parts from him that I
learned from that are good.

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And I’m going to choose to leave
the, the others behind.

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But that took a long time.
I, I left the church.

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I had a, a lot of negative
experiences with church members

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who, for instance, I was always
curious at exploring.

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And so I went and read the Quran
and I got told by somebody that

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because of that, I was
automatically going to help, you

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00:06:59,640 –> 00:07:02,360
know, just the fact that I’ve
read, it doesn’t matter whether

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00:07:02,360 –> 00:07:04,040
I believed.
It doesn’t matter whether I, you

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00:07:04,040 –> 00:07:06,800
know, just read it.
And I’m like that, that’s not

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the kind of God that I want to
hang out with.

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You know, I mean, I, I don’t, I
don’t see it that way.

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I don’t feel that way.
And I’ve read the books and, and

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studied and then I struggled
with that.

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And so my solution was to leave
to, to kind of say, well, if

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this is what everyone is saying,
being a good Christian is, well,

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I’m obviously not this.
So I must not be a good

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Christian, you know, and that
kind of thing.

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And so I went off to college
and, and spent a number of years

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kind of away from the church.
I called myself an atheist.

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Looking back on it, I really
wasn’t, I was more of an

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agnostic in terms of I was
doubting and searching, but I

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wasn’t really believing and I
didn’t really have that faith

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00:07:52,920 –> 00:07:55,600
yet.
And yet through all of that,

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00:07:56,200 –> 00:08:01,000
looking back on it, I see God
operating in my life and showing

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00:08:01,000 –> 00:08:04,160
up and and putting things in my
way like my current wife.

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00:08:04,400 –> 00:08:06,880
I’ve been married once before
and divorce to a high school

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sweetheart and then eventually
got remarried to to my current

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wife.
And she was a believer, but she

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was never pushy about it.
She was just, you know, open.

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So it was like, OK, and, and
then I had a period.

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00:08:19,600 –> 00:08:22,160
My wife and I went through a
period of financial struggles

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00:08:22,160 –> 00:08:26,160
where I was school teacher at
the time, made about $40,000 a

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00:08:26,160 –> 00:08:28,720
year.
We were like $60,000 in debt.

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I was suicidal because of
finances.

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00:08:32,200 –> 00:08:35,159
The irony is I would listen.
I would come home late at night

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00:08:35,159 –> 00:08:38,919
on a long curvy road and I would
listen to talk radio to keep me

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awake while I was plotting how I
could pretend to fall asleep and

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drive off the road.
And if you think about that, the

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irony of weight, you’re keeping
yourself awake thinking about

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falling asleep.
You know which again, it tells

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me that it, you know, deep down,
I’m going, I don’t want to leave

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like that.
This is not right.

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This is the wrong feeling.
But at the surface level, I felt

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00:09:01,080 –> 00:09:04,200
literally worth more dead than
alive, which I think a lot of

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00:09:04,200 –> 00:09:07,880
men especially and, and women as
well, but especially for men

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because of the way we’re wired
wannabe providers and provide

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security and safety and those
sorts of things.

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When we struggle financially, a
lot of times that shows up in

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feelings of worthlessness and
lack of, of worth.

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And, and that definitely was
true for me.

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00:09:26,800 –> 00:09:29,840
And as we went through that, I
eventually heard some messages.

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It was the Dave Ramsey Show and
hearing Dave did not convince

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00:09:34,400 –> 00:09:36,000
me.
I was arguing with Dave.

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I was mad at at the stupid stuff
he was saying on the radio.

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But then one of the Fridays came
along and back then on Fridays

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they had debt free screams and
somebody told their story.

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A man and a woman came on and
they told their story and it

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wasn’t identical to mine and my
wife’s, but there was enough

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00:09:53,920 –> 00:09:57,960
pieces that I could connect to
that journey.

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I could connect to that story.
And it finally opened my ears to

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going, huh, Maybe there is a
way, you know, maybe there is

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something I could do and that
exact same experience and exact

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same moment also maybe go, huh?
And maybe this is actually God

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showing up.
That kind of epiphany also

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00:10:22,760 –> 00:10:26,600
opened my heart to returning to
faith and returning to those

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00:10:26,600 –> 00:10:29,600
sorts of feelings.
And then as my wife and I

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00:10:29,600 –> 00:10:32,160
journeyed out of that, because
I, I finally came clean to my

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wife and told her what was going
on.

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00:10:33,960 –> 00:10:35,920
My wife’s a smart lady.
She knew what was going on.

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I’m protecting her by not
talking to her.

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00:10:38,560 –> 00:10:40,600
She’s protecting me by not
talking to me.

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00:10:41,160 –> 00:10:42,360
You know, secret of a good
marriage.

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00:10:42,360 –> 00:10:44,200
Don’t talk to each other.
You know, that’s terrible

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00:10:44,200 –> 00:10:45,640
advice.
Don’t do this.

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00:10:45,640 –> 00:10:48,600
But you know, that was what we
were doing because we were

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00:10:48,600 –> 00:10:51,560
protecting each other.
The intent was good, the action

192
00:10:51,560 –> 00:10:54,880
and behavior was wrong, you
know, and that the same thing

193
00:10:54,880 –> 00:10:57,800
with me plotting my suicide.
Honestly, my intent behind it

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00:10:57,800 –> 00:11:00,280
was good.
The experience of doing that was

195
00:11:00,760 –> 00:11:04,240
completely wrong and not wrong
methodology, wrong thought

196
00:11:04,240 –> 00:11:08,680
process, wrong plan.
And so I kind of returned to

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00:11:08,680 –> 00:11:11,760
that and, and literally at the
same time, when we decided that,

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00:11:11,760 –> 00:11:14,600
hey, we’re going to do this, get
out of direct journey, I said,

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00:11:14,600 –> 00:11:17,760
but we need to find a, a
community to do this with.

200
00:11:17,760 –> 00:11:20,360
We need to find a, a church that
we can go to.

201
00:11:20,360 –> 00:11:24,280
And, and I want to be surrounded
by other believers as we do

202
00:11:24,280 –> 00:11:26,440
this.
It’s always interesting to be

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00:11:26,440 –> 00:11:30,200
looking back that those two
events are the same event, even

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00:11:30,200 –> 00:11:33,040
though at first glance it seems
like those don’t have anything

205
00:11:33,040 –> 00:11:36,720
to do with each other, you know,
but they do, at least for me.

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00:11:37,440 –> 00:11:44,200
All of that background to say
out of that came this idea of

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00:11:45,000 –> 00:11:49,160
story and curiosity because it
again, it was the story that

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00:11:49,160 –> 00:11:53,320
connected me and I started
getting interested in how other

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00:11:53,320 –> 00:11:56,760
people felt about money and how
other people felt about faith

210
00:11:56,760 –> 00:11:58,840
and how other people felt about
God.

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00:11:58,840 –> 00:12:01,400
You know, one of the questions I
asked on my show is tell me

212
00:12:01,400 –> 00:12:03,880
about how your faith journey and
your life journey intersect.

213
00:12:04,600 –> 00:12:06,680
And people were like, oh, so you
mean where do I go to church?

214
00:12:06,720 –> 00:12:08,920
I’m like, absolutely not.
That has nothing to do with that

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00:12:08,920 –> 00:12:11,760
to the question, you know,
because I don’t care if you go

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00:12:11,760 –> 00:12:13,880
to church.
The question is, how has your

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00:12:13,880 –> 00:12:16,480
faith dirty or your spiritual
journey or where you’re at

218
00:12:16,480 –> 00:12:18,800
today?
How is it intersected with how

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00:12:18,800 –> 00:12:22,560
you got here?
And that to me is fascinating.

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00:12:23,080 –> 00:12:25,360
And so that’s what’s led me down
that road.

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No, as you said, it’s again, I
do not claim to do it perfectly.

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00:12:29,640 –> 00:12:32,240
I’m absolutely not perfect.
There are people that will say

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00:12:32,240 –> 00:12:36,200
something to me and it makes me
mad or, or irritates me and I’m

224
00:12:36,200 –> 00:12:39,440
closed down about it.
But I also try to be conscious

225
00:12:39,440 –> 00:12:42,560
of when that’s happening and go
wait a minute, you know, stop

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00:12:42,560 –> 00:12:44,680
it.
That’s not how you want to be.

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00:12:44,680 –> 00:12:48,520
You open up, ask questions and
get curious again.

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00:12:48,520 –> 00:12:50,320
I, I call it wearing my
curiosity hat.

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00:12:50,320 –> 00:12:52,960
I really need to get a hat made
that’s just like curious on it

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00:12:52,960 –> 00:12:54,840
and just like physically wear a
hat.

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00:12:55,240 –> 00:13:00,360
Yeah, you mentioned somebody
getting mad at you because you

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00:13:00,360 –> 00:13:04,320
read the Quran and the mindset
they had was any interaction

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00:13:04,320 –> 00:13:07,120
with it was.
Dangerous and harmful.

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00:13:07,560 –> 00:13:09,960
Almost as though as it was a
virus.

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00:13:09,960 –> 00:13:13,000
It would infect you, yeah.
And So what have you discovered

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00:13:13,000 –> 00:13:15,160
then?
If there are people that think

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00:13:15,160 –> 00:13:18,280
that any contact with it is like
that, what have you seen?

238
00:13:18,280 –> 00:13:20,800
That is actually what happens in
those moments.

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00:13:21,440 –> 00:13:26,240
I think if people sincerely have
the attitude of let’s find what

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00:13:26,240 –> 00:13:29,000
we have in common instead of
what we have different,

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00:13:30,200 –> 00:13:32,760
regardless of their belief,
regardless of their background,

242
00:13:32,760 –> 00:13:37,040
regardless of their faith or
lack of it, honestly, we can

243
00:13:37,040 –> 00:13:38,920
work together.
You know what I mean?

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00:13:39,200 –> 00:13:42,840
It’s the big tent mentality of,
hey, we don’t actually have to

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00:13:42,840 –> 00:13:48,960
agree on everything to agree on
the idea that we serve a God

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00:13:48,960 –> 00:13:51,240
who’s greater than us.
And even if we don’t call it

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00:13:51,240 –> 00:13:53,240
God, you know, I’ve had people
that are like, well, I don’t

248
00:13:53,240 –> 00:13:54,840
call it God.
I call it the universe.

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00:13:54,840 –> 00:13:58,680
I’m like, OK, fine.
You know, it’s the same thing.

250
00:13:58,680 –> 00:14:01,720
Your attitude is I care about
people and I want to love on

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00:14:01,720 –> 00:14:05,640
people and take care of people,
and I sincerely intend to make

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00:14:05,640 –> 00:14:09,840
the world a better place.
Well, I can work with that, even

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00:14:09,840 –> 00:14:13,120
if we don’t agree politically or
we don’t agree religiously.

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00:14:13,440 –> 00:14:17,200
I had a client couple, a Muslim
couple in Dubai that I worked

255
00:14:17,200 –> 00:14:19,480
with for several years, about
three years.

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00:14:20,200 –> 00:14:23,240
And at the end of it, we had a
running joke where he would say

257
00:14:23,240 –> 00:14:26,160
something Biblical, you know,
something from his book.

258
00:14:26,560 –> 00:14:29,360
And I would go, hey, that’s in
my book too, you know, and, and

259
00:14:29,360 –> 00:14:31,880
then I would say something and
he would go, hey, that’s in my

260
00:14:31,880 –> 00:14:34,880
book too, you know, because we
sincerely were looking for what?

261
00:14:34,880 –> 00:14:37,720
What do we have in common?
You know, and he knew I was

262
00:14:37,720 –> 00:14:39,560
Christian.
I knew he was Muslim.

263
00:14:39,560 –> 00:14:44,400
But we could get along because
we were not trying to figure out

264
00:14:44,400 –> 00:14:47,200
what we saw differently.
We were trying to figure out

265
00:14:47,200 –> 00:14:49,640
what we saw alike, if that makes
sense.

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00:14:50,560 –> 00:14:53,760
And at the end of it, he says, I
need to pay you a compliment,

267
00:14:53,760 –> 00:14:55,760
but I’m not sure you’re going to
take it as a compliment.

268
00:14:56,280 –> 00:14:58,960
I’m like, at this point, we
worked together for three years.

269
00:14:58,960 –> 00:15:00,040
You know, you’re not going to
offend me.

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00:15:00,040 –> 00:15:03,640
Say whatever you want.
And he goes, you’re Christian,

271
00:15:03,640 –> 00:15:04,960
but you’re not annoying about
it.

272
00:15:06,120 –> 00:15:08,120
I went absolutely, I will take
that as a compliment.

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00:15:08,520 –> 00:15:11,560
You know, my friend, I’m like,
you know, I, I’m annoyed by some

274
00:15:11,560 –> 00:15:15,000
of them too, you know, because I
think it’s pride, you know, when

275
00:15:15,000 –> 00:15:19,200
we have that sense of I’m right
about everything, it’s like

276
00:15:19,200 –> 00:15:21,360
we’re now adopting the position
of God.

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00:15:21,520 –> 00:15:23,960
And one of my favorite
expressions is, you know, that

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00:15:23,960 –> 00:15:26,160
was above my pay grade.
I don’t get to make the final

279
00:15:26,160 –> 00:15:27,920
decision on that.
God’s already made that

280
00:15:27,920 –> 00:15:31,600
decision.
It’s presumptuous of me to say I

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00:15:31,600 –> 00:15:35,680
know what that decision is.
You know, I don’t know about

282
00:15:35,680 –> 00:15:38,480
you, but I’ve literally got a
long list of questions that I

283
00:15:38,480 –> 00:15:40,520
want to ask, right?
You know, it’s like when I

284
00:15:40,720 –> 00:15:44,360
appear, I’m like, here before I
go, you know, can you answer

285
00:15:44,400 –> 00:15:45,320
this list?
Here you go.

286
00:15:45,560 –> 00:15:48,280
Got some explaining to do.
You got some explaining to do

287
00:15:48,280 –> 00:15:51,400
because this is, you know, I
don’t understand a lot of

288
00:15:51,400 –> 00:15:54,840
things, but I’m OK.
I’ve gotten to the point now

289
00:15:54,840 –> 00:15:58,360
where it’s I’m much more OK with
the idea that I don’t have to,

290
00:15:58,360 –> 00:16:04,440
you know, I have to be faithful.
I have to listen, I have to be,

291
00:16:04,440 –> 00:16:08,160
you know, obedient and obedient
here can has a negative

292
00:16:08,160 –> 00:16:10,920
connotation for some people and
it really shouldn’t, but it

293
00:16:10,920 –> 00:16:13,200
does.
And I have to respond in that

294
00:16:13,200 –> 00:16:14,960
way.
And that’s my job.

295
00:16:16,360 –> 00:16:20,160
Let God do God’s job, you know,
and God will sort it out.

296
00:16:20,240 –> 00:16:24,160
And I don’t have to be right to
be faithful.

297
00:16:24,960 –> 00:16:29,200
I just have to be faithful.
And when you can remember that,

298
00:16:29,640 –> 00:16:32,880
you stop feeling like you have
to justify everything.

299
00:16:32,880 –> 00:16:34,960
And that’s again, I think it’s
pride.

300
00:16:34,960 –> 00:16:38,120
I know for me it was and, and,
and it was arrogance.

301
00:16:38,120 –> 00:16:41,920
It was justifying how I felt and
who I was, you know, it, it was

302
00:16:41,920 –> 00:16:44,120
looking for the ammo.
It’s confirmation bias.

303
00:16:44,120 –> 00:16:47,080
If you want the fancy psychology
term, right, you know, I’m going

304
00:16:47,080 –> 00:16:49,560
to go through the Bible and find
everything that says I’m right.

305
00:16:49,560 –> 00:16:52,520
I’m going to conveniently ignore
anything that says I’m wrong,

306
00:16:53,160 –> 00:16:55,720
you know, and, and, and then I’m
going to go through this book

307
00:16:55,720 –> 00:16:57,120
and I’m going to look for
anything that says I’m.

308
00:16:57,280 –> 00:16:59,480
See, look, I’ve got a long list
of things that say I’m right,

309
00:16:59,880 –> 00:17:00,960
therefore I’m right.
And it’s.

310
00:17:01,200 –> 00:17:05,079
Yeah, No, you’re not.
You know, you mentioned two

311
00:17:05,079 –> 00:17:08,400
things, and there’s this middle
space that I want to talk about.

312
00:17:08,400 –> 00:17:11,400
So you were just talking about
how you’ve gotten to a place

313
00:17:11,400 –> 00:17:15,000
where you are in content, not
knowing everything for now.

314
00:17:15,000 –> 00:17:16,079
In eternity.
You’re going to have the

315
00:17:16,079 –> 00:17:19,119
questions, but right now.
Eventually I wanted to answer

316
00:17:19,520 –> 00:17:20,520
you but.
You’re willing to have the

317
00:17:20,520 –> 00:17:25,839
humility to say, I don’t know.
And then it was implied that

318
00:17:25,839 –> 00:17:29,440
some of why people were
resistant to this approach is

319
00:17:29,440 –> 00:17:33,160
they’re afraid it’s going to
lead to more questions, lead

320
00:17:33,160 –> 00:17:36,560
them to doubt their faith.
And for a while, deconstruction

321
00:17:36,560 –> 00:17:40,560
was a big buzzword, and people
were very afraid of this idea of

322
00:17:40,600 –> 00:17:43,480
any amount of doubt is bad, any
questions are bad.

323
00:17:44,240 –> 00:17:47,080
And you’re leaning into this
space where you’re talking to

324
00:17:47,080 –> 00:17:51,920
people who may have wildly
different, possibly even

325
00:17:51,920 –> 00:17:57,640
conflicting, views and mindsets.
Some would say that could lead

326
00:17:57,640 –> 00:18:00,000
to more questions, more doubt,
and pull you away from your

327
00:18:00,000 –> 00:18:01,840
faith.
But I’m getting the impression

328
00:18:01,840 –> 00:18:03,960
that the opposite has often
happened.

329
00:18:03,960 –> 00:18:07,800
So how has entering these spaces
actually answered some of your

330
00:18:07,800 –> 00:18:10,040
questions, actually deepened
your faith?

331
00:18:10,240 –> 00:18:18,240
Again, I think it’s made me more
comfortable that my gut feeling

332
00:18:18,400 –> 00:18:21,160
of there is a God and I’m not
God.

333
00:18:22,000 –> 00:18:24,640
You know, it’s gotten me more
comfortable with the fact that I

334
00:18:24,640 –> 00:18:27,240
don’t know.
I think it’s, it’s opened my

335
00:18:27,240 –> 00:18:30,520
mind more.
So yes, it has caused me to

336
00:18:30,520 –> 00:18:35,240
question and yes, I have deep
questions about faith and God.

337
00:18:35,240 –> 00:18:40,520
And, you know, what is the right
interpretation of this message

338
00:18:40,520 –> 00:18:43,760
or that scripture or whatever?
And I, I study it.

339
00:18:43,760 –> 00:18:46,160
And I, you know, I’m one of
these people that I’m a nerd.

340
00:18:46,160 –> 00:18:49,680
I’ll read the books that nobody
else reads, you know, and unless

341
00:18:49,680 –> 00:18:51,360
you’re in a seminary, you know,
that kind of thing.

342
00:18:51,760 –> 00:18:54,280
Literally, there’s a pastor at
our church that’s going through

343
00:18:54,280 –> 00:18:56,880
seminary.
And she, my wife and her husband

344
00:18:56,880 –> 00:19:00,640
and her went to breakfast the
other day and she’s like, I like

345
00:19:00,640 –> 00:19:02,840
talking to you because I could
talk about stuff from seminary

346
00:19:02,840 –> 00:19:04,640
class and you actually know what
I’m talking about.

347
00:19:04,640 –> 00:19:07,600
I’m like, I read the books.
You know, it’s like, I’ve done

348
00:19:07,600 –> 00:19:10,080
everything but actually go get
the piece of paper because I

349
00:19:10,080 –> 00:19:12,200
don’t feel like I’m called to
have that piece of paper.

350
00:19:12,520 –> 00:19:16,160
I said because I, it’s
fascinating to me to learn and

351
00:19:16,560 –> 00:19:19,480
it makes it richer.
I’ll use an analogy.

352
00:19:19,560 –> 00:19:20,760
So I have a background in
science.

353
00:19:20,760 –> 00:19:22,800
My degrees are in biochemistry
and genetics.

354
00:19:23,200 –> 00:19:26,840
And I’ve been told by people
things like, oh, the fact that,

355
00:19:26,960 –> 00:19:31,080
you know, you know, the science
behind a rainbow has to take

356
00:19:31,080 –> 00:19:33,360
away the magic of looking at a
rainbow.

357
00:19:33,360 –> 00:19:35,240
And I’m like, no, it, it makes
it richer.

358
00:19:36,040 –> 00:19:39,000
You know, the fact that I can
look up and go, OK, that’s light

359
00:19:39,000 –> 00:19:41,760
physically being scattered by
drops and broken into these

360
00:19:41,760 –> 00:19:43,960
different wavelengths.
And that’s why I can see these

361
00:19:43,960 –> 00:19:46,080
colors and oh, look there where
they blend.

362
00:19:46,200 –> 00:19:49,360
I understand all of this
empirically, but I can still

363
00:19:49,360 –> 00:19:53,520
look at a rainbow and have that
poetry in the my heart of wow,

364
00:19:53,520 –> 00:19:57,040
look at God’s beauty and God’s
creation and how wonderful

365
00:19:57,040 –> 00:20:00,040
nature is in creating this
spectacle.

366
00:20:00,400 –> 00:20:04,200
You’ll hear out of the storm
comes this breaking light and

367
00:20:04,640 –> 00:20:09,120
how that that means the the
return of of dawn and joy and

368
00:20:09,120 –> 00:20:12,440
these wow.
What an analogy and A and a

369
00:20:12,720 –> 00:20:15,400
metaphor for, for life and for
experience.

370
00:20:15,840 –> 00:20:18,120
I can have both of those
experiences.

371
00:20:19,240 –> 00:20:23,040
Having one doesn’t lessen the
other, you know, it doesn’t take

372
00:20:23,040 –> 00:20:25,720
it away.
And so that’s kind of the

373
00:20:25,720 –> 00:20:30,280
feeling is out of that
questioning in the study of the

374
00:20:30,320 –> 00:20:33,920
the history and the theology and
the culture and the, you know,

375
00:20:33,920 –> 00:20:36,720
how have different things been
interpreted over the years?

376
00:20:36,720 –> 00:20:40,400
You know, when was this word
added to the Bible or, you know,

377
00:20:40,400 –> 00:20:44,080
this passage was changed and you
go look at the the history of

378
00:20:44,080 –> 00:20:46,000
the different interpretations of
it.

379
00:20:46,520 –> 00:20:49,920
That to me makes the experience.
It’s richer of going.

380
00:20:49,920 –> 00:20:53,200
And yet through all of that, God
is working.

381
00:20:53,760 –> 00:20:58,880
You know, we’re imperfect.
We’re not getting it right, but

382
00:20:59,320 –> 00:21:04,800
God’s perfection still shows up
even when we do our darkness to

383
00:21:04,800 –> 00:21:07,680
screw it up.
You know, sometimes I think we

384
00:21:07,680 –> 00:21:10,880
go out of our way to do it.
God still goes.

385
00:21:10,880 –> 00:21:12,440
Yeah.
But eventually, guess what?

386
00:21:12,440 –> 00:21:14,440
It’s going to come back around
and you’ll get there.

387
00:21:14,680 –> 00:21:17,880
You know, you’ll get there.
I I have patience.

388
00:21:17,920 –> 00:21:20,360
You may not have faith in me,
but I have faith in you.

389
00:21:20,360 –> 00:21:23,560
You’ll you’ll get there.
And God continues to operate in

390
00:21:23,560 –> 00:21:28,240
that space.
And when I got to that point, it

391
00:21:28,240 –> 00:21:32,600
got a lot easier to go, oh,
questioning doesn’t take away

392
00:21:32,600 –> 00:21:35,200
faith.
It is part of faith.

393
00:21:35,840 –> 00:21:39,080
I don’t think the opposite of
faith is doubt.

394
00:21:40,160 –> 00:21:43,240
I don’t think doubt is the
opposite of faith.

395
00:21:43,240 –> 00:21:46,280
I think no pride is the opposite
of faith.

396
00:21:46,280 –> 00:21:48,720
In some ways, I almost think
certainty is the opposite of

397
00:21:48,720 –> 00:21:52,600
faith, because let’s face it, if
you knew the truth, then

398
00:21:52,600 –> 00:21:56,600
believing it doesn’t take faith.
It is the truth.

399
00:21:56,880 –> 00:21:58,920
You know what I mean?
You don’t actually have to have

400
00:21:58,920 –> 00:22:01,040
faith to operate in a place of
certainty.

401
00:22:02,440 –> 00:22:05,080
Faith operates in the place of
uncertainty.

402
00:22:05,560 –> 00:22:08,040
It’s like thinking somebody with
No Fear is brave.

403
00:22:08,040 –> 00:22:10,080
No, no, no, no.
If you have No Fear, you’re not

404
00:22:10,080 –> 00:22:12,760
brave.
You have No Fear, you know.

405
00:22:13,200 –> 00:22:18,560
But if you have fear and you run
into the fire anyway and rescue

406
00:22:18,560 –> 00:22:21,240
that, that’s brave.
That’s what we look at and go,

407
00:22:21,240 –> 00:22:25,880
you know, that’s brave.
You know, it’s operating in that

408
00:22:25,880 –> 00:22:32,800
place of doubt and questions and
uncertainty, at least for me.

409
00:22:32,800 –> 00:22:37,120
And, and I don’t think this has
to be true for everyone, but at

410
00:22:37,120 –> 00:22:41,400
least for me, that’s where I
actually start to see God more

411
00:22:41,920 –> 00:22:47,280
rather than less, because I have
to trust the fact that God knows

412
00:22:47,280 –> 00:22:51,840
the answer.
I don’t, you know, it’s, it’s, I

413
00:22:51,840 –> 00:22:53,200
don’t know.
It’s a weird thing because

414
00:22:53,200 –> 00:22:54,560
you’re right.
I hit push back.

415
00:22:54,560 –> 00:22:57,840
A lot of, you know, no studying
the context, it’s a slippery

416
00:22:57,840 –> 00:22:59,880
slope.
If you study this, then now

417
00:22:59,880 –> 00:23:01,560
you’re going to start to
question everything in the

418
00:23:01,560 –> 00:23:05,200
Bible.
And I’m like, well, yeah, I kind

419
00:23:05,200 –> 00:23:09,080
of do, you know, And I don’t
think that’s necessarily a bad

420
00:23:09,080 –> 00:23:11,240
thing.
Yeah, to not have questions is

421
00:23:11,240 –> 00:23:14,720
to imply that we perfectly
understand all things and there

422
00:23:14,720 –> 00:23:17,600
is a way to question things
that’s not disrespect or

423
00:23:17,600 –> 00:23:20,560
defiance to God.
And you know, what’s interesting

424
00:23:20,560 –> 00:23:23,440
is you were talking about the
difference between certainty and

425
00:23:23,440 –> 00:23:26,480
uncertainty.
I realized a big part of it is

426
00:23:26,600 –> 00:23:30,640
who it is we’re actually
choosing in that moment because

427
00:23:30,640 –> 00:23:33,560
in certainty, a lot of times the
reason we want it is because we

428
00:23:33,560 –> 00:23:37,160
want security, we want control,
we want comfort, so we’re

429
00:23:37,160 –> 00:23:40,960
choosing ourselves.
Uncertainty actually requires us

430
00:23:40,960 –> 00:23:45,360
to reject ourselves more often
than not as an act of choosing

431
00:23:45,360 –> 00:23:48,360
God who’s not telling us what
he’s going to do.

432
00:23:48,360 –> 00:23:52,360
And so and so it is an act of
love towards God.

433
00:23:53,080 –> 00:23:55,560
When you were talking, it
reminded me that Oswod Chambers

434
00:23:55,720 –> 00:23:58,560
in I have it sitting right.
Over there.

435
00:23:59,200 –> 00:24:02,120
I’ll read a little bit of it.
What we will be has not yet been

436
00:24:02,120 –> 00:24:03,160
made known.
First.

437
00:24:03,160 –> 00:24:06,240
John 32.
Naturally, we are inclined to be

438
00:24:06,240 –> 00:24:10,000
so mathematical and calculating
that we look upon uncertainty as

439
00:24:10,000 –> 00:24:13,160
a bad thing.
We imagine that we have to reach

440
00:24:13,160 –> 00:24:15,720
some goal.
But this isn’t the nature of the

441
00:24:15,720 –> 00:24:18,200
spiritual life.
The nature of the spiritual life

442
00:24:18,400 –> 00:24:21,120
is that we are certain in our
uncertainty.

443
00:24:21,560 –> 00:24:23,840
Certainty is the mark of the
common sense life.

444
00:24:24,080 –> 00:24:27,320
Gracious uncertainty is the mark
of the spiritual life.

445
00:24:27,760 –> 00:24:31,360
To be certain of God means that
we are uncertain of the rest,

446
00:24:31,640 –> 00:24:33,480
never knowing what a day may
bring.

447
00:24:34,040 –> 00:24:36,760
This is generally said with a
sigh of sadness.

448
00:24:37,080 –> 00:24:40,480
It should be said with a burst
of breathless expectation.

449
00:24:40,880 –> 00:24:44,400
We’re uncertain of the next
step, but we’re certain of God.

450
00:24:45,120 –> 00:24:47,320
Which leads me to something I
was thinking as you were

451
00:24:47,320 –> 00:24:48,960
sharing.
Because we’re talking about

452
00:24:49,240 –> 00:24:53,560
being open minded, open hearted,
open handed when interacting

453
00:24:53,720 –> 00:24:57,160
with others, but also in our
interaction with God.

454
00:24:58,000 –> 00:25:01,480
But this is also infiltrated
into your everyday life because

455
00:25:02,160 –> 00:25:07,360
you’ve described ways that you
lived and understood reality

456
00:25:07,600 –> 00:25:11,840
that you no longer carry now.
Ways that you understood what

457
00:25:11,920 –> 00:25:13,880
involvement with religion should
look like.

458
00:25:14,520 –> 00:25:18,680
Moments where you realized life
isn’t worth living and now

459
00:25:18,680 –> 00:25:23,720
you’re at a place where your
mind is so open to realities

460
00:25:23,720 –> 00:25:28,000
counter to what you knew that
you’re rethinking what money is.

461
00:25:28,160 –> 00:25:30,400
You’re rethinking what vocation
is.

462
00:25:30,400 –> 00:25:32,480
You’re rethinking a lot of
things that are pretty well

463
00:25:32,480 –> 00:25:36,240
defined by most people.
And you’re starting to say, I

464
00:25:36,280 –> 00:25:38,080
don’t know that it’s actually
that.

465
00:25:38,480 –> 00:25:42,800
So tell me about that, how this
whole experience has changed how

466
00:25:42,800 –> 00:25:46,480
you engage the everyday things
of life that others think are

467
00:25:46,480 –> 00:25:48,840
certain.
That’s how the coaching business

468
00:25:48,840 –> 00:25:51,640
was born.
What literally happened For

469
00:25:51,640 –> 00:25:54,600
those that are listening, I I
run a business called Inspired

470
00:25:54,600 –> 00:25:56,520
stewardship.
I consider myself a full time

471
00:25:56,520 –> 00:25:59,240
coach and I identify as a
stewardship coach.

472
00:25:59,280 –> 00:26:02,560
And I’ll talk a little bit about
that in a minute because I think

473
00:26:02,560 –> 00:26:04,400
a lot of people are confused by
that word.

474
00:26:04,800 –> 00:26:09,600
But how it was born is pretty
early on when my wife and I came

475
00:26:09,600 –> 00:26:12,240
together and said, hey, we’re
going to do this thing, we’re

476
00:26:12,240 –> 00:26:16,080
going to do different.
I was making a job transition.

477
00:26:16,120 –> 00:26:20,000
There was I had some health
problems there, collapsed lung

478
00:26:20,000 –> 00:26:22,320
twice, once in December and once
in January.

479
00:26:22,560 –> 00:26:24,760
For those of you that know how
insurance works, that means I

480
00:26:24,760 –> 00:26:26,760
got to pay everything twice.
You know, This is why we’re

481
00:26:26,760 –> 00:26:29,520
trying to get out of debt.
All of these challenges and

482
00:26:29,520 –> 00:26:33,480
experiences, and yet the waste
we started showing up, it was

483
00:26:33,480 –> 00:26:36,520
very different than the way most
people were showing up.

484
00:26:36,520 –> 00:26:38,800
And we were making different
decisions and we were doing

485
00:26:38,800 –> 00:26:41,360
different things.
And literally someone at church

486
00:26:41,360 –> 00:26:45,320
came up to us and said, you and
your wife are weird.

487
00:26:45,680 –> 00:26:47,400
Do you think you could help us
be weird?

488
00:26:48,640 –> 00:26:49,920
That was literally how they put
it.

489
00:26:50,840 –> 00:26:54,040
I went, sure, we can probably do
that.

490
00:26:54,760 –> 00:26:58,240
And they paid us $135 to work
with them to coach for three

491
00:26:58,240 –> 00:26:59,840
months.
So that was our first coaching

492
00:26:59,840 –> 00:27:01,440
client.
I didn’t know that at the time.

493
00:27:01,440 –> 00:27:03,400
I would not have said that was a
coaching client.

494
00:27:03,440 –> 00:27:05,560
We were just sitting down and
mentoring someone.

495
00:27:06,120 –> 00:27:11,400
And I, I realized, wow, this is
powerful, you know, having

496
00:27:11,400 –> 00:27:14,680
someone sit down with you and,
and walk with you in this and

497
00:27:14,680 –> 00:27:18,040
ask questions and not tell
people what to do and not give

498
00:27:18,040 –> 00:27:21,520
them the answers, but sometimes
give them a tool or equip them

499
00:27:21,520 –> 00:27:23,640
with something.
But mainly just walk with them

500
00:27:23,960 –> 00:27:27,560
and listen to their story and,
and guide them and ask questions

501
00:27:27,560 –> 00:27:31,520
and have that faith in them and,
and have hope that they can

502
00:27:31,520 –> 00:27:33,080
borrow until they find their
own.

503
00:27:33,080 –> 00:27:35,560
Because sometimes you’re so
deep, you don’t have any hope.

504
00:27:35,560 –> 00:27:37,400
You got to, you know, borrow
somebody else’s.

505
00:27:38,080 –> 00:27:41,320
I just said, OK, we, let’s start
this coaching.

506
00:27:41,320 –> 00:27:43,560
And we did it.
And, and still to this day, it’s

507
00:27:43,560 –> 00:27:46,160
I have a ministry arm of the
business or benevolent side.

508
00:27:46,160 –> 00:27:48,200
And then I have a, a business
side of it.

509
00:27:48,760 –> 00:27:50,880
And then we started that from
the very beginning and started

510
00:27:50,880 –> 00:27:53,840
working on the business while I
was in corporate and climbing

511
00:27:53,840 –> 00:27:56,720
the corporate ladder.
We’re doing this on the side and

512
00:27:56,720 –> 00:28:00,400
I the, the we, and this is my
wife and I, she’s a full partner

513
00:28:00,400 –> 00:28:02,640
in the business, though she
doesn’t show up as the front.

514
00:28:02,640 –> 00:28:08,320
She’s behind the scenes person.
And all of this came about as I

515
00:28:08,320 –> 00:28:12,640
was struggling and wrestling
with, with what to do and what

516
00:28:12,640 –> 00:28:15,000
do you call it?
What, what is this thing I’m

517
00:28:15,000 –> 00:28:17,560
doing?
And I discovered coaching and

518
00:28:17,560 –> 00:28:21,400
started studying that and
learning those skills and oh

519
00:28:21,400 –> 00:28:23,040
wow, this is, this is what I’m
doing.

520
00:28:23,040 –> 00:28:26,120
But but what kind of coaching?
And I argue, by the way, that

521
00:28:26,120 –> 00:28:28,840
all coaching is life coaching.
It’s just a matter of what lens

522
00:28:28,840 –> 00:28:33,000
of life we want to look through.
And eventually, it took several

523
00:28:33,000 –> 00:28:37,960
years, I began to notice that
the way we show up with money

524
00:28:38,360 –> 00:28:45,200
and with time tends to be
resultants of our beliefs and

525
00:28:45,200 –> 00:28:49,920
our mindsets more than it is how
much money we make or it, it’s

526
00:28:49,920 –> 00:28:53,040
not the factual stuff, it’s the
emotional stuff, it’s the

527
00:28:53,040 –> 00:28:55,960
squishy stuff.
And, and it shows up in our

528
00:28:55,960 –> 00:28:57,520
money.
And so when people are saying

529
00:28:57,520 –> 00:29:00,560
things like, I make too much
money to feel this broke, it’s

530
00:29:00,560 –> 00:29:04,400
not really a money problem.
It, it’s a, a mindset, a

531
00:29:04,400 –> 00:29:07,600
behavior, a belief, a faith
issue.

532
00:29:08,280 –> 00:29:10,960
And as I began to label it that
I, I realized that there was a

533
00:29:10,960 –> 00:29:14,760
perfectly good word, stewardship
that unfortunately had come to

534
00:29:14,760 –> 00:29:18,560
not mean what it really means,
which is that idea of having the

535
00:29:18,560 –> 00:29:21,560
mindset of all of these
blessings that I’m given with or

536
00:29:21,560 –> 00:29:23,800
not mine to own.
They’re just mine to manage.

537
00:29:24,400 –> 00:29:28,880
And they’re mine to manage on
behalf of the ultimate owner,

538
00:29:28,880 –> 00:29:32,000
which is God.
And that means I’m supposed to

539
00:29:32,000 –> 00:29:33,920
use these to make the Kingdom a
little better.

540
00:29:35,000 –> 00:29:38,720
And a lot of times we’re not,
you know, and when we’re not, it

541
00:29:38,720 –> 00:29:43,200
tends to show up in strain and
struggle and misalignment and,

542
00:29:43,400 –> 00:29:46,520
and arguments and fights and
divorce and all of these other

543
00:29:46,520 –> 00:29:49,840
things.
They’re symptoms of, of a, a

544
00:29:49,840 –> 00:29:52,080
misalignment of that, that
belief.

545
00:29:52,800 –> 00:29:54,640
And the reason why I say
stewardship unfortunately

546
00:29:54,640 –> 00:29:57,240
doesn’t mean that anymore is
unfortunately in a lot of

547
00:29:57,240 –> 00:30:01,840
Christian churches, you hear the
word stewardship once a year and

548
00:30:01,840 –> 00:30:04,000
it’s usually in September,
October.

549
00:30:04,000 –> 00:30:06,600
They have a stewardship campaign
when they talk about, you know,

550
00:30:06,600 –> 00:30:09,080
next year’s pledges, how much
are you going to give to the

551
00:30:09,080 –> 00:30:11,760
church next year?
It’s 100% in the orientation of

552
00:30:11,760 –> 00:30:13,600
money.
The only other time you hear it

553
00:30:13,600 –> 00:30:16,040
is, hey, we’re starting a
building campaign.

554
00:30:16,520 –> 00:30:18,880
And so go see the stewardship
committee about how much you

555
00:30:18,880 –> 00:30:19,920
want to give towards the
building.

556
00:30:20,080 –> 00:30:21,840
You know that that it’s, they’re
all money.

557
00:30:22,280 –> 00:30:25,160
And it’s like, that’s not, at
least in my opinion, that’s not

558
00:30:25,160 –> 00:30:28,120
biblically what the concept of
stewardship is supposed to be.

559
00:30:28,120 –> 00:30:30,360
And it’s certainly not
historically what the concept of

560
00:30:30,360 –> 00:30:34,000
stewardship is supposed to be.
It’s so much richer than that.

561
00:30:34,000 –> 00:30:39,240
And we’ve made it so small.
And so I’ve leaned into that

562
00:30:39,240 –> 00:30:46,680
idea of if we can recapture that
and start to lean into that idea

563
00:30:46,680 –> 00:30:52,000
of if you have that moment where
you’re sitting there at a table

564
00:30:52,400 –> 00:30:56,200
and you hear that story from the
waitress about how her van broke

565
00:30:56,240 –> 00:30:59,600
that morning and she barely
managed to get to work and her

566
00:30:59,600 –> 00:31:01,320
van still on the side of the
road.

567
00:31:01,600 –> 00:31:04,720
And boy, it, I’m not even 100%
sure I’m going to be able to get

568
00:31:04,720 –> 00:31:07,440
it fixed.
And you’ve got $800 in your

569
00:31:07,440 –> 00:31:10,000
wallet because you’re driving
cross country on vacation.

570
00:31:10,000 –> 00:31:13,000
And God’s telling you leave at
$800 tip.

571
00:31:13,360 –> 00:31:15,800
Leave the tip.
You know, and it’s not about

572
00:31:15,800 –> 00:31:18,760
money.
It’s about the faithful action

573
00:31:18,760 –> 00:31:20,360
to what God is calling you to
do.

574
00:31:20,840 –> 00:31:24,120
You know, if God calls you to
show up in a certain way,

575
00:31:24,200 –> 00:31:26,960
whether that’s financially,
whether that’s with your other

576
00:31:26,960 –> 00:31:31,160
giftings, whatever it is, you
know, it’s easier to make the

577
00:31:31,160 –> 00:31:34,800
analogy with money, but it shows
up everywhere.

578
00:31:35,200 –> 00:31:38,720
And what ends up happening
instead is I think we kind of

579
00:31:38,720 –> 00:31:42,760
fight against that feeling.
And, you know, and again, being

580
00:31:42,800 –> 00:31:44,440
transparent, I struggle with it
too.

581
00:31:44,440 –> 00:31:47,080
That’s one of the reasons I talk
about it all the time is because

582
00:31:47,080 –> 00:31:49,120
the more I talk about it and
talk to people about it, the

583
00:31:49,120 –> 00:31:53,120
easier it is for me to do it.
You know, I lean into it because

584
00:31:53,120 –> 00:31:56,400
it is a struggle to listen all
the time.

585
00:31:56,400 –> 00:31:58,720
And by the way, the waitress
story is actually a story of my

586
00:31:58,720 –> 00:32:00,720
wife and I, while we were
getting out of debt.

587
00:32:00,720 –> 00:32:03,880
We left an $800 tip.
We’re sitting there going, We

588
00:32:03,880 –> 00:32:06,200
got $800 that we’re supposed to
do something else with.

589
00:32:06,200 –> 00:32:10,160
But God’s telling us to do this.
And I’ll be honest, my wife was

590
00:32:10,160 –> 00:32:13,200
the one who heard God better
than me because she’s and she

591
00:32:13,200 –> 00:32:14,880
usually is.
Yeah.

592
00:32:15,400 –> 00:32:18,080
Yeah.
She’s the empath.

593
00:32:18,080 –> 00:32:21,760
I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m a bit
oblivious, but I have learned to

594
00:32:21,760 –> 00:32:23,680
listen.
My shins thank me for that.

595
00:32:23,880 –> 00:32:28,360
Because if I if I don’t listen,
she reminds me with the light,

596
00:32:28,920 –> 00:32:30,160
with the light tap for the
shins.

597
00:32:31,600 –> 00:32:35,280
Well, and what you’re talking
about is hard on many levels

598
00:32:35,520 –> 00:32:40,200
because 1, you are inviting
people to internalize an

599
00:32:40,200 –> 00:32:43,720
entirely different understanding
of how reality works, because

600
00:32:43,720 –> 00:32:47,240
the way we experience reality
working is there are certain

601
00:32:47,240 –> 00:32:49,800
needs that we have, biological
needs.

602
00:32:49,800 –> 00:32:52,520
You need food, you need water,
you need shelter.

603
00:32:53,200 –> 00:32:58,560
And the reality is more often
than not, to get those things,

604
00:32:58,680 –> 00:33:01,080
you need money.
I mean, you have to pay a water

605
00:33:01,080 –> 00:33:02,920
bill.
You have to pay for your food,

606
00:33:03,040 –> 00:33:06,400
you have to pay rent.
And there is a way that you get

607
00:33:06,400 –> 00:33:09,480
that money and we all kind of
hold out that we’ll get lucky

608
00:33:09,480 –> 00:33:12,280
and win the lottery or something
like that, or find a bag of

609
00:33:12,280 –> 00:33:15,760
cash.
But most often it is you have to

610
00:33:16,160 –> 00:33:18,640
get a job to get that money.
And then once you have that

611
00:33:18,640 –> 00:33:21,480
money, the reality is you have
to hold that money because

612
00:33:21,480 –> 00:33:23,400
there’s so many reasons you can
lose it.

613
00:33:23,960 –> 00:33:27,160
So someone is hearing a story
like that and they could be

614
00:33:27,160 –> 00:33:30,480
thinking, I mean, well, you earn
that money, that’s your money.

615
00:33:30,480 –> 00:33:33,760
Or they could be thinking, OK,
but what if then you get on the

616
00:33:33,760 –> 00:33:35,280
road and your vehicle breaks
down?

617
00:33:35,760 –> 00:33:38,440
Or they could be thinking all
kinds of things.

618
00:33:38,440 –> 00:33:42,080
So you’re inviting people to
take on an entirely different

619
00:33:42,080 –> 00:33:46,120
understanding of reality.
But even beyond that, you’re

620
00:33:46,120 –> 00:33:49,120
inviting them to believe things
that will leave them with a lot

621
00:33:49,120 –> 00:33:51,120
of questions that might be hard
to believe.

622
00:33:51,120 –> 00:33:55,120
Because if you lean into the
belief that you don’t need that

623
00:33:55,120 –> 00:33:58,480
$800 and you leave it, you’re
also choosing to believe that

624
00:33:58,480 –> 00:34:02,400
God can provide in other ways.
Because again, it’s not like

625
00:34:02,400 –> 00:34:05,000
you’re going to take on another
job while you’re on the road and

626
00:34:05,000 –> 00:34:08,280
suddenly make that $800 back.
So you’re trusting that God’s

627
00:34:08,280 –> 00:34:11,679
going to do something, but then
if he doesn’t do it in the way

628
00:34:11,679 –> 00:34:14,000
you expect?
And God seldom does it the way I

629
00:34:14,360 –> 00:34:17,320
expect.
And so you’re inviting people to

630
00:34:17,320 –> 00:34:22,760
let go of stuff that seems
pretty easy to prove and to grab

631
00:34:22,760 –> 00:34:26,400
on to stuff that, as you just
noted, often doesn’t play out

632
00:34:26,400 –> 00:34:30,600
the way you expect.
And so how does someone navigate

633
00:34:30,600 –> 00:34:33,960
something that just
realistically is very foolish?

634
00:34:34,760 –> 00:34:36,320
You see, I don’t think it is
foolish.

635
00:34:36,360 –> 00:34:39,320
I think it’s actually wisdom.
That’s the contradictory part.

636
00:34:39,639 –> 00:34:43,360
I would agree that it could feel
foolish and and I don’t think

637
00:34:43,840 –> 00:34:48,199
there there is a difference
between doing this in a wise way

638
00:34:48,199 –> 00:34:51,920
and doing this in a foolish way.
OK, you know, again, I mentioned

639
00:34:51,920 –> 00:34:55,120
my wife is an empath.
My wife can walk into a room and

640
00:34:55,120 –> 00:34:58,600
within 5 minutes she’s like that
person over there is hurting.

641
00:34:58,960 –> 00:35:02,800
I’m going to go talk to him and
I’m going, how can you tell?

642
00:35:02,840 –> 00:35:05,600
You know, I’m, I’m overloaded by
the fact that there’s people in

643
00:35:05,600 –> 00:35:08,160
the room to be, I’ll be honest,
I’m the very much the introvert

644
00:35:08,160 –> 00:35:10,880
don’t like parties and too noisy
and all of that stuff.

645
00:35:11,560 –> 00:35:13,600
And she’ll just seek out that
person.

646
00:35:13,600 –> 00:35:15,840
She knows that they’re hurting.
She knows they need help.

647
00:35:15,840 –> 00:35:18,240
She’s going to go find them and
she’s going to go talk to him

648
00:35:18,240 –> 00:35:21,360
and try to help them.
And unfortunately, every once in

649
00:35:21,360 –> 00:35:25,000
a while, I get blessed with that
gift when I need it because my

650
00:35:25,000 –> 00:35:29,040
wife lends it to me and God, you
know, transfers it over to me.

651
00:35:29,040 –> 00:35:32,440
And I hate every minute of it.
You know, it’s, it’s very

652
00:35:32,440 –> 00:35:34,040
uncomfortable.
I literally look at her

653
00:35:34,040 –> 00:35:37,040
sometimes, like, how do you live
your life like that?

654
00:35:37,040 –> 00:35:39,920
That’s bizarre to me.
That’s why there’s two of us and

655
00:35:39,920 –> 00:35:42,440
that’s why we need both of us is
because we see the world

656
00:35:42,440 –> 00:35:45,600
differently and together we kind
of see it more complete.

657
00:35:46,200 –> 00:35:49,200
So getting back to, you know,
your question, it, it’s not

658
00:35:49,200 –> 00:35:54,960
foolish because it’s not about
testing God or trying to prove

659
00:35:55,360 –> 00:35:58,840
God wrong in a way, you know,
it’s not about, you know, hey,

660
00:35:58,840 –> 00:36:02,080
God, if you’re big enough, you
can make, you know, make this

661
00:36:02,080 –> 00:36:04,760
show up and take care of me.
If it comes from that kind of

662
00:36:04,760 –> 00:36:08,080
prideful arrogance, boy, I
always come back to pride.

663
00:36:08,080 –> 00:36:11,240
And that that’s such a, that’s
such a key sin for me.

664
00:36:11,440 –> 00:36:14,240
And I mean that in both senses
of the word in, in that it’s a

665
00:36:14,240 –> 00:36:16,800
key sin for me in terms of it’s
the one I struggle with the

666
00:36:16,800 –> 00:36:18,840
most.
And it’s a key sin for me.

667
00:36:18,840 –> 00:36:22,120
And I think it’s a root sin for
so many mistakes that we make.

668
00:36:22,560 –> 00:36:26,680
So it, it’s a key sin in in both
ways, not more important or less

669
00:36:26,680 –> 00:36:29,240
important, but just, you know, a
keystone.

670
00:36:30,200 –> 00:36:33,040
And it’s that feeling of
arrogance or pride of either.

671
00:36:33,040 –> 00:36:35,280
I’m going to prove God wrong,
you know, see, I’m going to

672
00:36:35,280 –> 00:36:38,360
prove God can’t take care of me.
See, he doesn’t really love me.

673
00:36:38,360 –> 00:36:40,200
He won’t take care of me.
I’m going to, I’m going to set

674
00:36:40,200 –> 00:36:44,000
him up for failure.
Really, you know, and yet we do

675
00:36:44,000 –> 00:36:45,560
that right?
You know, we go through bad

676
00:36:45,560 –> 00:36:49,600
experiences, we go through
double lung, you know, and the

677
00:36:49,600 –> 00:36:52,560
second time it’s like, why are
you doing this?

678
00:36:52,800 –> 00:36:55,880
You know, God, come on, dude, I
learned, I learned the first

679
00:36:55,880 –> 00:36:57,440
time.
I don’t need to repeat this, you

680
00:36:57,440 –> 00:36:59,040
know, that.
Let’s let’s, let’s get over it.

681
00:37:00,080 –> 00:37:04,960
Obviously there was more there
that I don’t know, you know, and

682
00:37:04,960 –> 00:37:10,480
so it’s it’s that ability to
just lean into faithful

683
00:37:10,480 –> 00:37:16,160
following with wisdom and with
listening and trusting the

684
00:37:16,160 –> 00:37:18,480
situation.
You know, again, I think it

685
00:37:18,480 –> 00:37:22,200
takes faith to do that because I
don’t know about you, but

686
00:37:22,200 –> 00:37:24,560
there’s times where God will
tell me, OK, Scott, you need to

687
00:37:24,560 –> 00:37:27,240
do this right in the book.
Great example.

688
00:37:27,240 –> 00:37:29,960
You know, we we’re both in the
book world writing the book and

689
00:37:29,960 –> 00:37:32,720
inspired living and and God’s
like, you need to write a book.

690
00:37:32,720 –> 00:37:35,360
He started telling me that years
before I wrote the book.

691
00:37:36,760 –> 00:37:41,000
And I argue, I’m not a writer.
I don’t write, I hate writing.

692
00:37:41,760 –> 00:37:43,840
There’s a way you can do it.
Just write the book.

693
00:37:44,640 –> 00:37:46,240
I don’t want to, you know, blah,
blah, blah, blah.

694
00:37:46,680 –> 00:37:50,440
And eventually it’s like, oh,
yeah, there is a book here and

695
00:37:50,440 –> 00:37:52,800
there is a way I should do it.
And, and it doesn’t involve

696
00:37:52,800 –> 00:37:55,080
sitting down at the computer and
begging my head against it

697
00:37:55,080 –> 00:37:57,520
because I hate writing.
OK.

698
00:37:57,520 –> 00:37:59,320
And so I tell people I talked a
book, right?

699
00:37:59,320 –> 00:38:00,880
You know, my podcast became a
book.

700
00:38:01,400 –> 00:38:05,080
It’s listening to God and God
going, here’s the next step.

701
00:38:05,880 –> 00:38:07,960
And me going, no, no, no, no,
no.

702
00:38:07,960 –> 00:38:11,600
Tell me the next 32 steps and
tell me exactly where they end

703
00:38:11,600 –> 00:38:15,600
up and God going.
Do you, do you really have

704
00:38:15,600 –> 00:38:18,000
faith?
You know, do you really believe

705
00:38:18,000 –> 00:38:20,400
in me?
Because if you do, if you really

706
00:38:20,400 –> 00:38:23,680
trust me, you don’t need 32
steps.

707
00:38:23,680 –> 00:38:27,200
You need one.
Yeah, I’ll be honest.

708
00:38:27,480 –> 00:38:29,320
Usually that’s all I can handle
anywhere.

709
00:38:29,320 –> 00:38:33,640
So it’s like, you know, so I’m
like, all right, you know,

710
00:38:33,720 –> 00:38:36,400
because usually the step that
God’s giving me is way bigger

711
00:38:36,400 –> 00:38:39,320
than I’m comfortable taking.
And I’m going really.

712
00:38:39,320 –> 00:38:42,280
You want me to do that?
Go do it.

713
00:38:43,000 –> 00:38:46,720
But but, but, and, you know, and
then eventually I take that step

714
00:38:47,480 –> 00:38:51,080
and then things open up.
That’s where I come back to God

715
00:38:51,080 –> 00:38:56,120
shows up in ways that you don’t
expect.

716
00:38:56,480 –> 00:38:59,680
You know, there’s passages like
store up treasures in heaven.

717
00:38:59,680 –> 00:39:02,480
And I think a lot of times we
hear that like, Oh, I’m going to

718
00:39:02,480 –> 00:39:05,240
have a big house.
That’s not what that means.

719
00:39:05,920 –> 00:39:09,320
You know, those those treasures
aren’t material goods.

720
00:39:09,360 –> 00:39:11,400
It doesn’t mean your bank
accounts going to be bigger.

721
00:39:11,840 –> 00:39:14,160
Trust me and this test me and
this and I will pour out

722
00:39:14,160 –> 00:39:17,000
blessings and abundance to you.
You know, a lot of people

723
00:39:17,000 –> 00:39:18,520
interpret that passage about
tithing.

724
00:39:18,960 –> 00:39:22,240
It’s not, oh, if I give 10%,
God’s going to show up at the

725
00:39:22,240 –> 00:39:24,920
110% my bank account.
That’s not what that means.

726
00:39:25,280 –> 00:39:29,240
But yet it does mean that you
will be blessed and some of

727
00:39:29,240 –> 00:39:31,440
those blessings are going to be
internal in terms of your

728
00:39:31,440 –> 00:39:34,920
feelings and your beliefs and
your contentment and your, your

729
00:39:34,920 –> 00:39:38,080
sense of I have been faithful
and I have done what I’ve been

730
00:39:38,080 –> 00:39:41,600
called to do, you know, And then
some of them will be external

731
00:39:41,600 –> 00:39:44,040
and then some of them will show
up in the form of other people,

732
00:39:45,040 –> 00:39:48,440
’cause that’s the other thing
I’ve discovered is it turns out

733
00:39:48,440 –> 00:39:51,040
people like helping people that
help people.

734
00:39:51,720 –> 00:39:54,880
So when they sense that your
heart is caring and loving and

735
00:39:54,880 –> 00:40:01,280
sincere and your intent is good,
people have a tendency to go,

736
00:40:01,280 –> 00:40:05,320
oh, let me help that person.
Let me connect you to Paul, or

737
00:40:05,320 –> 00:40:09,600
let me introduce you to this
person or let me do this thing

738
00:40:09,600 –> 00:40:14,920
for you in ways that I never
would have expected.

739
00:40:15,160 –> 00:40:18,360
I, I don’t deserve.
You know, Grace shows up

740
00:40:18,480 –> 00:40:20,000
sometimes in the form of other
people.

741
00:40:20,480 –> 00:40:22,920
And yeah, it may not be $800
coming back into my bank

742
00:40:22,920 –> 00:40:25,240
account.
But it may be, and this has

743
00:40:25,240 –> 00:40:27,960
happened where I go in to pay
for the gas.

744
00:40:27,960 –> 00:40:30,640
Back in the day before, there
was pay at the pump and somebody

745
00:40:30,640 –> 00:40:33,880
paid for my gas.
And it’s like, who paid for my

746
00:40:33,880 –> 00:40:35,920
gas, You know, Why did that
happen?

747
00:40:35,960 –> 00:40:38,120
You know, that never happens.
Nobody pays for it.

748
00:40:38,120 –> 00:40:40,800
Somebody else’s tanking gas?
Yeah, the guy in front of you

749
00:40:41,000 –> 00:40:42,680
paid for it.
OK.

750
00:40:43,120 –> 00:40:48,720
So it’s things that often times
we don’t see because they don’t

751
00:40:48,720 –> 00:40:56,280
make sense to us that are the
echoes of that open handed heart

752
00:40:56,680 –> 00:41:00,600
allows things to flow back to
you just as surely as it allows

753
00:41:00,600 –> 00:41:04,680
things to flow away from you
when you have that openness.

754
00:41:05,240 –> 00:41:08,800
I’ve seen that happen where when
you have that clothes minded and

755
00:41:08,800 –> 00:41:11,720
clothes fisted, yeah, things
can’t get away from you.

756
00:41:11,720 –> 00:41:15,480
But things can’t get in either,
you know, and those those things

757
00:41:15,480 –> 00:41:18,560
that get in again, it’s not just
money in my bank account.

758
00:41:18,560 –> 00:41:22,400
Sometimes it is, but it’s
connections, it’s relationships,

759
00:41:22,400 –> 00:41:26,640
it’s opportunities.
It’s all sorts of bizarre

760
00:41:26,880 –> 00:41:31,160
coincidences.
He puts in air quotes that, you

761
00:41:31,200 –> 00:41:34,240
know, are God operating.
They, they show up and God says,

762
00:41:34,960 –> 00:41:37,840
OK, you’re being faithful with
that.

763
00:41:38,760 –> 00:41:40,280
I’m going to give you a little
bit more to manage.

764
00:41:40,960 –> 00:41:44,760
And that may be more in terms of
a business or company or a

765
00:41:44,840 –> 00:41:48,160
paycheck it, but it also may be
more in terms of relationship

766
00:41:48,160 –> 00:41:51,720
and stewardship of others.
You know, you, you may become

767
00:41:51,720 –> 00:41:57,520
that person that mentors kids or
that mentors a a Co worker and

768
00:41:57,800 –> 00:42:01,960
and suddenly opens their eyes to
the gospel for the first time,

769
00:42:02,320 –> 00:42:04,040
because you don’t beat them over
the head with it.

770
00:42:04,040 –> 00:42:06,880
But you say, you know, this is
who I am.

771
00:42:06,880 –> 00:42:09,800
And they go, Oh, I connect to
that.

772
00:42:09,800 –> 00:42:11,240
Let me let me learn more from
you.

773
00:42:11,760 –> 00:42:16,080
Whatever it is, those are all
God showing up in that open

774
00:42:16,080 –> 00:42:18,920
hearted, open minded, open
handed.

775
00:42:18,920 –> 00:42:22,520
I’m just going to be faithful to
take the next action and God can

776
00:42:22,520 –> 00:42:25,440
take it from there because He’ll
tell me the next action whenever

777
00:42:25,440 –> 00:42:27,200
I need to know what the next
action is.

778
00:42:28,640 –> 00:42:31,480
When all of what you just said
is why you were able to start by

779
00:42:31,480 –> 00:42:34,040
saying, well, it’s not actually
foolish, right?

780
00:42:34,040 –> 00:42:37,400
Because if somebody’s only
thinking from a limited human

781
00:42:37,400 –> 00:42:40,120
understanding and if they
pridefully think that they’ve

782
00:42:40,120 –> 00:42:43,600
got a good grasp on life, then
you’re going to have a limited

783
00:42:43,600 –> 00:42:47,560
framework from which to work.
I was talking to somebody the

784
00:42:47,560 –> 00:42:51,880
other day who is a Christian who
is really wanting to seek God

785
00:42:51,880 –> 00:42:56,320
and know God and trust God.
But when I told them that I’ve

786
00:42:56,320 –> 00:42:58,680
been full time volunteer
ministry and not gotten a

787
00:42:58,680 –> 00:43:02,440
paycheck since 2018, they looked
at me dead in the eyes and said

788
00:43:02,600 –> 00:43:05,520
that’s not OK.
Like it was a jarring moment

789
00:43:05,520 –> 00:43:08,720
from we were smiling and joking
and all that to like, that’s not

790
00:43:08,720 –> 00:43:11,360
OK.
And it shocked me because what

791
00:43:11,360 –> 00:43:16,880
they didn’t know is how I’ve
seen God’s reality far differ

792
00:43:16,880 –> 00:43:18,800
from what I thought the reality
was.

793
00:43:18,840 –> 00:43:21,120
And I was going into it having
already served in ministry.

794
00:43:21,120 –> 00:43:23,600
So I.
Was already open to a different

795
00:43:23,600 –> 00:43:25,720
understanding and God was going
to shake it even more.

796
00:43:26,000 –> 00:43:30,080
In 2 verses that support what
you said, that it’s not actually

797
00:43:30,080 –> 00:43:34,200
foolish, it’s wisdom is 1.
When God says my ways are not

798
00:43:34,200 –> 00:43:36,120
your ways and my thoughts are
not your thoughts.

799
00:43:36,600 –> 00:43:40,320
And then this one in First
Corinthians one verse 25.

800
00:43:40,640 –> 00:43:45,480
For the foolishness of God is
wiser than human wisdom, and the

801
00:43:45,480 –> 00:43:48,480
weakness of God is stronger than
human strength.

802
00:43:48,480 –> 00:43:54,040
In other words, our wisest and
strongest moments are nothing

803
00:43:54,480 –> 00:43:57,280
compared to God’s wisdom and
God’s strength.

804
00:43:57,680 –> 00:44:02,720
And this is what the good news
is, a holy God doesn’t have to

805
00:44:02,720 –> 00:44:05,040
do a thing for us, doesn’t owe
us a thing.

806
00:44:05,040 –> 00:44:10,080
And yet he and his love chooses
to share that wisdom and

807
00:44:10,080 –> 00:44:13,160
strength with us, work that
wisdom and strength and love

808
00:44:13,160 –> 00:44:17,200
through US.
And the deciding factor is if

809
00:44:17,200 –> 00:44:22,320
we’re willing to say, OK, it had
that open mind, open heart, open

810
00:44:22,320 –> 00:44:26,480
hands.
And so you’ve mentioned your

811
00:44:26,480 –> 00:44:27,760
journey to getting to this
point.

812
00:44:28,560 –> 00:44:31,240
You have humbly acknowledged
that you don’t always get it

813
00:44:31,240 –> 00:44:33,600
right.
And so for someone listening

814
00:44:33,600 –> 00:44:38,400
that says this sounds really
big, really intense, really

815
00:44:38,400 –> 00:44:42,200
outside of my ability.
But I, I want to lean into it.

816
00:44:43,200 –> 00:44:46,000
What could it look like for
someone to take a step in this

817
00:44:46,000 –> 00:44:46,680
direction?
I.

818
00:44:47,680 –> 00:44:50,680
Don’t think there’s one answer
to that question, but I’ll share

819
00:44:50,680 –> 00:44:53,920
a couple of things that at least
have helped me along the

820
00:44:53,920 –> 00:44:59,160
journey.
One is be very deliberate and

821
00:44:59,160 –> 00:45:03,840
intentional about creating quiet
time.

822
00:45:06,240 –> 00:45:09,880
And quiet time may involve
prayer.

823
00:45:09,920 –> 00:45:13,600
It may involve meditation.
It may involve a walk, you know,

824
00:45:14,360 –> 00:45:16,440
but a walk without the podcast
in your ears.

825
00:45:17,400 –> 00:45:19,800
As a podcaster, that’s hard for
me to say, but there you go.

826
00:45:20,400 –> 00:45:25,360
You know, I literally mean time
beyond just reading the word or

827
00:45:25,360 –> 00:45:28,120
reading the, the Bible or that
kind of thing, but time to

828
00:45:28,120 –> 00:45:31,920
actually just listen, you know,
to sit on the front porch with

829
00:45:31,920 –> 00:45:34,800
that cup of coffee, in my case,
sit on the back porch with that

830
00:45:34,800 –> 00:45:36,560
cup of coffee and watch the
chickens.

831
00:45:36,560 –> 00:45:39,040
You know, that’s a time for me.
I’ve, I’ve, we got 3 chickens

832
00:45:39,200 –> 00:45:42,120
and I think they’re hilarious.
You know, I just love watching

833
00:45:42,120 –> 00:45:47,720
them and watching how they
interact and going, OK, God,

834
00:45:47,720 –> 00:45:49,680
what is it?
That’s the next step for me.

835
00:45:49,840 –> 00:45:55,240
What is it you want me to do?
And then listen because you’ll

836
00:45:55,240 –> 00:45:58,120
hear echoes.
I, I have never had the

837
00:45:58,120 –> 00:46:01,720
privilege of hearing the audible
voice of God out loud or in my

838
00:46:01,720 –> 00:46:05,840
mind, say this is the next best
thing, you know, text step X.

839
00:46:06,040 –> 00:46:08,960
I’ve never had that.
But what I begin to get is kind

840
00:46:08,960 –> 00:46:14,800
of an itchy peacefulness, which
sounds weird in terms of I get a

841
00:46:14,800 –> 00:46:17,840
little bit of a push or nudge
that maybe you need to go in

842
00:46:17,840 –> 00:46:19,960
that direction.
And when I lean into it or start

843
00:46:19,960 –> 00:46:23,760
thinking about it, I get echoes
back of, yeah, that that that’s

844
00:46:23,760 –> 00:46:25,800
going to make you feel better,
that’s going to be better for

845
00:46:25,800 –> 00:46:26,840
you.
Go that direction.

846
00:46:28,160 –> 00:46:32,200
And then that gets echoed
inevitably throughout the day,

847
00:46:32,200 –> 00:46:34,360
throughout the week, throughout
the month, throughout the year

848
00:46:34,560 –> 00:46:37,920
in other things, coincidences
start showing up.

849
00:46:38,800 –> 00:46:42,360
That person that you sit down
and have a cup of coffee with

850
00:46:43,000 –> 00:46:45,280
says, you know, I’ve been
thinking about this, you know,

851
00:46:45,280 –> 00:46:47,840
and the thing they’re thinking
about is the exact thing that

852
00:46:47,840 –> 00:46:51,480
you were praying about that
morning and going, OK, yeah,

853
00:46:51,480 –> 00:46:54,800
Something else is the universe,
God, whatever name you want to

854
00:46:54,800 –> 00:46:58,920
give, it echoes back to you that
yeah, this is the right

855
00:46:58,920 –> 00:47:01,360
direction.
So that would be one thing.

856
00:47:01,360 –> 00:47:05,120
Be very deliberate and
intentional and protective.

857
00:47:05,120 –> 00:47:08,120
You know, that truly is holy
space.

858
00:47:09,400 –> 00:47:13,000
And most of us don’t allow that
in our life anymore.

859
00:47:13,000 –> 00:47:17,280
There is so much noise.
And I’m bad about not always

860
00:47:17,280 –> 00:47:20,840
protecting that time and getting
busy and looking at the phone or

861
00:47:20,840 –> 00:47:23,360
whatever.
You’re turning that podcast on

862
00:47:23,440 –> 00:47:27,720
and not reminding myself, wait a
minute, you need that quiet too.

863
00:47:27,800 –> 00:47:31,000
You need to be comfortable with
the uncomfortableness that comes

864
00:47:31,000 –> 00:47:34,960
in silence.
So that would be a big one.

865
00:47:35,760 –> 00:47:39,160
Another thing that was helpful
for me is I challenged myself

866
00:47:39,160 –> 00:47:43,240
for a number of years and I’ve
done this in different ways.

867
00:47:43,240 –> 00:47:45,640
I’ve, I’ve read the Bible cover
to cover.

868
00:47:45,640 –> 00:47:47,680
I’ve read, you know, just the
New Testament, just the Old

869
00:47:47,680 –> 00:47:49,920
Testament.
I’ve just read Proverbs one

870
00:47:49,920 –> 00:47:52,520
time, just back and forth, you
know, every day read a proverb,

871
00:47:52,520 –> 00:47:54,840
every day read a proverb.
And it works out beautifully.

872
00:47:54,840 –> 00:47:56,280
If you do that in terms of
timing.

873
00:47:56,920 –> 00:47:59,240
And I’m not doing it to memorize
Scripture.

874
00:47:59,240 –> 00:48:03,560
I’m not doing it to have that
attitude of, you know, oh, look,

875
00:48:03,560 –> 00:48:07,040
I can quote 17 passages from the
Bible or whatever.

876
00:48:07,040 –> 00:48:12,840
It, it’s more of a let me see
what I’m receiving from the word

877
00:48:12,840 –> 00:48:16,200
of God.
And, and again, I’m empirical

878
00:48:16,200 –> 00:48:17,720
minded.
So I, I’ll read different

879
00:48:17,720 –> 00:48:21,000
versions, you know, of the Bible
and different interpretations

880
00:48:21,000 –> 00:48:24,000
and different translations.
And you know, I’ll read a study

881
00:48:24,000 –> 00:48:26,320
Bible and look at the notes and
then I’ll get a different to

882
00:48:26,320 –> 00:48:29,280
study Bible because they’ll have
different notes, you know, You

883
00:48:29,280 –> 00:48:35,600
know, and I want to hear and
feel the richness of the word.

884
00:48:36,360 –> 00:48:40,600
So be active in the word, I
guess is what I’m trying to say.

885
00:48:40,600 –> 00:48:43,640
I think some of us read the
Bible, but we read it very

886
00:48:43,640 –> 00:48:46,120
passively.
We read it as a book.

887
00:48:47,080 –> 00:48:50,560
At least for me, I’ve gotten
more richness and more

888
00:48:50,560 –> 00:48:55,920
connection and more of that open
minded feeling when I read it in

889
00:48:55,920 –> 00:49:01,200
an active, experiential way.
You know what moment is showing

890
00:49:01,200 –> 00:49:06,400
up in my life right now in that
chapter, in that verse, in that

891
00:49:06,480 –> 00:49:09,880
book, whatever it is, and don’t
just do it once.

892
00:49:10,280 –> 00:49:11,400
You know, that’s the other
thing.

893
00:49:11,400 –> 00:49:13,480
I think there are many
Christians out there who’ve

894
00:49:13,480 –> 00:49:17,560
never actually read the whole
Bible and you’re missing so

895
00:49:17,560 –> 00:49:19,720
much.
And I don’t say that in a judgy

896
00:49:19,720 –> 00:49:24,000
way, but just in a, there’s so
much more that God has for your

897
00:49:24,000 –> 00:49:27,560
life.
If you just look, and this isn’t

898
00:49:27,560 –> 00:49:30,480
about making you a better
Christian or, you know, that

899
00:49:30,480 –> 00:49:33,040
person’s more Christian than
that person, then because it’s,

900
00:49:33,080 –> 00:49:35,440
it’s none of that.
It’s not competition, it’s not

901
00:49:35,920 –> 00:49:38,000
prideful.
It’s the richness of

902
00:49:38,000 –> 00:49:43,920
relationship because those two
things together is what allows

903
00:49:43,920 –> 00:49:48,360
the person struggling with us to
move a little bit further

904
00:49:48,360 –> 00:49:56,440
towards, I really do trust God
in the way that really means to

905
00:49:56,440 –> 00:50:00,360
say, I trust God not just to say
it, but to actually mean it.

906
00:50:01,120 –> 00:50:04,360
And again, it’s not a perfect
process and it takes time.

907
00:50:04,520 –> 00:50:05,960
You know, it’s a process on an
event.

908
00:50:06,680 –> 00:50:09,320
I’ve said several times, I’m
still not perfect at it by any

909
00:50:09,320 –> 00:50:12,880
stretch of the imagination.
It’s the journey is wrestling

910
00:50:12,880 –> 00:50:15,560
with those two things.
So I would pick one of those,

911
00:50:15,560 –> 00:50:18,360
both of those and start down
that road and I think you’re

912
00:50:18,360 –> 00:50:19,320
well on your way.
It’s really good.

913
00:50:20,720 –> 00:50:23,760
And somebody might be listening
and thinking on I need more than

914
00:50:23,760 –> 00:50:25,360
that.
And the good news is they can

915
00:50:25,360 –> 00:50:27,200
connect with you and inspired
stewardship.

916
00:50:27,200 –> 00:50:29,880
So if somebody wanted to connect
with you, what could that look

917
00:50:29,880 –> 00:50:31,880
like?
The easiest way is I actually

918
00:50:31,880 –> 00:50:34,880
put together a page over on my
website just for your listers.

919
00:50:34,880 –> 00:50:38,760
So if you go to
inspiredstewardship.com and then

920
00:50:38,760 –> 00:50:43,160
just forward slash see God do it
all as one word, no space or

921
00:50:43,160 –> 00:50:47,120
anything, just S EE God.
There’s a some stuff there that

922
00:50:47,120 –> 00:50:49,920
about my book you you already
mentioned inspired living

923
00:50:49,920 –> 00:50:51,200
earlier.
My podcast.

924
00:50:51,200 –> 00:50:54,920
You can go back and listen to
Paul on that is on there, as

925
00:50:54,920 –> 00:50:57,280
well as a way that you can
connect with me or shoot me a

926
00:50:57,280 –> 00:51:02,240
message and I’d be happy to to
chat with anyone at any time

927
00:51:02,240 –> 00:51:03,320
about any of this.
That’s.

928
00:51:03,680 –> 00:51:05,880
Great.
And as we close out, is there

929
00:51:05,880 –> 00:51:08,200
anything else that God’s putting
on your heart that you feel led

930
00:51:08,200 –> 00:51:10,800
to share?
I guess the only thing I would

931
00:51:10,800 –> 00:51:19,480
say is I think so many of us
today are trapped in echo

932
00:51:19,480 –> 00:51:25,680
chambers, whether it’s Facebook
or or Instagram or the news or

933
00:51:26,440 –> 00:51:34,480
whatever is so much out there is
feeding to US one view of

934
00:51:35,200 –> 00:51:37,920
things.
There’s a, an experiment right

935
00:51:37,920 –> 00:51:40,600
where you put a a ball in front
of two people, right?

936
00:51:40,600 –> 00:51:42,800
One side of the ball is painted
black and the other side is

937
00:51:42,800 –> 00:51:44,720
painted white.
And each person’s looking at it.

938
00:51:44,720 –> 00:51:46,040
You say, OK, what color is the
ball?

939
00:51:46,040 –> 00:51:48,680
And of course one person says
white and the other person says

940
00:51:48,680 –> 00:51:51,720
black and they’ll get in a knock
down drag out fight about

941
00:51:51,720 –> 00:51:53,200
whether or not white is white or
black.

942
00:51:53,200 –> 00:51:55,880
And the answer is it’s both.
You’re just each only seeing one

943
00:51:55,880 –> 00:51:58,280
side.
And I think so often today we’re

944
00:51:58,360 –> 00:52:01,720
we’re doing that, you know,
politically in the US is

945
00:52:01,720 –> 00:52:07,800
obvious, but but globally, in so
many places, we’re moving away

946
00:52:07,800 –> 00:52:13,160
from each other because we’re
not connecting to each other as

947
00:52:13,160 –> 00:52:16,320
humans, as as people, as
children of God.

948
00:52:16,520 –> 00:52:19,320
You know, and I hate to tell you
this, but that person that you

949
00:52:19,320 –> 00:52:23,600
hate is still a child of God,
you know, And by the way, if

950
00:52:23,600 –> 00:52:27,360
that person that you hate is you
still, you’re still a child of

951
00:52:27,360 –> 00:52:30,520
God, you know, because it’s been
me bad times that I, you know,

952
00:52:30,520 –> 00:52:33,120
the person I hated the most has
been myself at times, right?

953
00:52:33,720 –> 00:52:38,000
So it’s, it’s just being open to
the fact that we don’t have all

954
00:52:38,000 –> 00:52:39,600
the answers.
And that’s OK.

955
00:52:40,240 –> 00:52:43,800
But boy, wouldn’t it be a better
place if we actually just asked

956
00:52:43,800 –> 00:52:47,600
each other the questions and
then listened to the answers.

957
00:52:48,200 –> 00:52:51,640
I really think that’s the birth
place of the Kingdom, so to

958
00:52:51,640 –> 00:52:54,680
speak.
Is that that sincere curiosity?

959
00:52:54,680 –> 00:52:59,600
So I would encourage people to
just lean into that curiosity.

960
00:52:59,600 –> 00:53:05,720
When God tells you listen,
listen and ask questions and

961
00:53:05,720 –> 00:53:09,680
then just shut up and listen and
you’d be amazed at what will

962
00:53:09,680 –> 00:53:10,640
come into your life.
You will.

963
00:53:10,920 –> 00:53:14,880
Walk.
You will run days through the

964
00:53:14,920 –> 00:53:17,080
streets shouting praise to the
world.

965
00:53:18,640 –> 00:53:20,240
You’ll heal.
You’re clean.

966
00:53:20,240 –> 00:53:24,880
Go out and tell the people what
you’ve seen.

967
00:53:25,240 –> 00:53:33,520
Revived in him, new life in him.
Revelation 10 verses one through

968
00:53:33,520 –> 00:53:38,040
4 Say this.
Then I saw another mighty Angel

969
00:53:38,040 –> 00:53:41,560
coming down from heaven.
He was robed in a cloud with a

970
00:53:41,560 –> 00:53:45,480
rainbow over his head.
His face was like the sun and

971
00:53:45,480 –> 00:53:47,400
his legs were like fiery
pillars.

972
00:53:48,000 –> 00:53:50,880
He was holding a little scroll
which lay open in his hand.

973
00:53:51,520 –> 00:53:54,200
He planted his right foot on the
sea, and it’s a left foot on the

974
00:53:54,200 –> 00:53:56,640
land.
And he gave a loud shout, like

975
00:53:56,640 –> 00:54:00,800
the roar of a lion.
When he shouted, the voices of

976
00:54:00,800 –> 00:54:04,120
the seven thunders spoke.
And when the seven thunders

977
00:54:04,120 –> 00:54:08,880
spoke, I was about to write, but
I heard a voice from heaven say,

978
00:54:09,560 –> 00:54:14,920
seal up what the seven thunders
have said and do not write it

979
00:54:14,920 –> 00:54:18,120
down.
Because I think about this idea

980
00:54:18,120 –> 00:54:20,120
of uncertainty.
I was reminded of something that

981
00:54:20,120 –> 00:54:23,680
I wrote in my devotional, A
Journey Through Revelation.

982
00:54:24,120 –> 00:54:28,560
For the person who doesn’t want
to read Revelation, this is day

983
00:54:28,560 –> 00:54:33,960
13 titled You Will Never Fully
Understand Revelation.

984
00:54:35,880 –> 00:54:38,960
I’m sorry to be the bearer of
bad news, but if you’re reading

985
00:54:38,960 –> 00:54:43,160
Revelation to fully understand
it, this chapter makes it clear

986
00:54:43,240 –> 00:54:47,840
you won’t.
Verse 4 is where it happens and

987
00:54:47,840 –> 00:54:50,880
when the seven thunders had
sounded, I was about to write

988
00:54:51,320 –> 00:54:54,800
but I heard a voice from heaven
saying seal up what the seven

989
00:54:54,800 –> 00:54:57,920
thunders have said and do not
write it down.

990
00:54:59,520 –> 00:55:03,320
Something was said that was so
important John felt it needed to

991
00:55:03,320 –> 00:55:07,320
be written, but he was told to
seal that information up from

992
00:55:07,320 –> 00:55:10,240
us.
In other words, God is telling

993
00:55:10,240 –> 00:55:14,800
us no matter how much you study
revelation, there are elements

994
00:55:14,800 –> 00:55:17,440
you will never be able to
access.

995
00:55:18,800 –> 00:55:23,400
This is actually a gift.
God knows our bend towards

996
00:55:23,400 –> 00:55:27,440
control and amassing information
and understanding is one of our

997
00:55:27,440 –> 00:55:30,920
paths there.
He doesn’t want us on a path to

998
00:55:30,920 –> 00:55:34,960
control, He wants us on a path
to Him.

999
00:55:35,960 –> 00:55:39,320
He has barred us from full
knowledge to protect us from

1000
00:55:39,320 –> 00:55:42,440
ourselves.
We see the same thing in the

1001
00:55:42,440 –> 00:55:46,160
garden.
God in full transparency, showed

1002
00:55:46,160 –> 00:55:49,640
the fullness of His knowledge in
the form of two trees and in His

1003
00:55:49,640 –> 00:55:52,040
wisdom told Adam and Eve they
shouldn’t eat of them.

1004
00:55:52,880 –> 00:55:56,280
God knew their bodies couldn’t
handle the potency of that fruit

1005
00:55:57,360 –> 00:56:01,480
they ate, and God was shown
right that knowledge corrupted

1006
00:56:01,480 –> 00:56:04,360
their minds and made them
incapable of naturally trusting

1007
00:56:04,360 –> 00:56:06,520
God and knowing their true
identities.

1008
00:56:07,440 –> 00:56:10,720
God wasn’t withholding, He was
protecting.

1009
00:56:12,080 –> 00:56:14,360
If we feel angry that God
blocked the words of the

1010
00:56:14,360 –> 00:56:18,720
thunders, we should ask why do
we feel like we need to know?

1011
00:56:19,920 –> 00:56:25,600
What are we after?
Or more Why don’t we trust God?

1012
00:56:27,280 –> 00:56:30,320
After all, God likely has a
reason for not giving us that

1013
00:56:30,320 –> 00:56:33,520
information.
Think of it this way.

1014
00:56:34,080 –> 00:56:36,840
If you look at a bottle of
medicine, you’ll see dosage

1015
00:56:36,840 –> 00:56:38,760
recommendations for various
ages.

1016
00:56:39,400 –> 00:56:42,800
Adults can take up to two,
children can take one, but 2 and

1017
00:56:42,800 –> 00:56:46,680
under should never take it.
Pharmacists know that the size

1018
00:56:46,680 –> 00:56:49,640
and maturity of your body
determines what it can handle,

1019
00:56:50,440 –> 00:56:53,320
and baby bodies just aren’t
ready for most medicines.

1020
00:56:54,560 –> 00:56:57,560
The fact that scripture connects
our spiritual maturity to age

1021
00:56:57,560 –> 00:57:01,200
ranges like infant and adult
means this comparison might not

1022
00:57:01,200 –> 00:57:05,320
be far fetched.
However, just because your body

1023
00:57:05,320 –> 00:57:08,640
can handle something doesn’t
mean it is without consequence.

1024
00:57:09,760 –> 00:57:12,040
This is why those bottles also
list side effects.

1025
00:57:13,040 –> 00:57:15,880
Sure, you could take this
medicine, but understand that it

1026
00:57:15,880 –> 00:57:19,840
may make you nauseous.
Even the sweetest tasting

1027
00:57:19,840 –> 00:57:23,640
medicines can wreak havoc on our
bodies even as they heal.

1028
00:57:24,520 –> 00:57:29,000
But if a medicine is necessary
for our survival, we will accept

1029
00:57:29,080 –> 00:57:32,440
the side effects.
John is offered a.

1030
00:57:32,440 –> 00:57:35,160
Scroll that he is told will be
like.

1031
00:57:35,160 –> 00:57:38,360
Honey in his mouth, but bitter
in his stomach.

1032
00:57:39,440 –> 00:57:42,400
Why does John eat something that
will have negative consequences?

1033
00:57:43,440 –> 00:57:46,760
Because he trusts God and God’s
Angel told him to eat.

1034
00:57:48,240 –> 00:57:51,680
We must grow in understanding
our motives for taking things

1035
00:57:51,680 –> 00:57:54,520
in.
If it’s for control, comfort, or

1036
00:57:54,520 –> 00:57:57,800
any other human reason, the
consequences could wreck us.

1037
00:57:58,760 –> 00:58:03,080
If it is an obedience to God,
even the worst consequences will

1038
00:58:03,080 –> 00:58:06,200
be worth it.
If you are wrestling with

1039
00:58:06,200 –> 00:58:10,320
uncertainty, if you are
wrestling with a deep desire for

1040
00:58:10,320 –> 00:58:14,880
God to explain things, consider
the scenario that God is giving

1041
00:58:14,880 –> 00:58:17,600
you a gift and not telling you
everything.

1042
00:58:18,480 –> 00:58:22,920
What if in this spirit LED
uncertainty, God is giving you

1043
00:58:22,960 –> 00:58:25,880
an opportunity to know Him more
deeply?

1044
00:58:26,720 –> 00:58:30,160
What if releasing, knowing
everything else frees up our

1045
00:58:30,160 –> 00:58:35,120
minds to see God more fully?
Uncertainty isn’t a bad thing.

1046
00:58:35,800 –> 00:58:39,240
What we have to figure out is
why we want to know what we want

1047
00:58:39,240 –> 00:58:42,200
to know, and if we’re willing to
let it go.

1048
00:58:42,760 –> 00:58:46,320
And as we do, we can ask
ourselves, where did you see

1049
00:58:46,320 –> 00:58:46,720
God?